GOP: A Party of Traitors

Mman, it is not "getting" weird, and it doesn't "seem" wrong. It is already very weird and very wrong! There are no ifs, ands, or buts. These people ARE flat out TRAITORS, and they don't DESERVE the freedoms they have been given, nor to be given ears to listen to them.

I think the teabag protesters have every right to protest and protect their multi level bank accounts. The same as war protesters have protest attempting to protect our children and grandchildren who are dying in this war.

The difference here is the call for insurrection. I still say watching these folks rip open tiny teabags was really amusing. Of course most I saw were big money business men who probably didn't know tea was anything other than a period of history.

Mandelman

but it's getting weird, no question about it. And it seems wrong.

No question about it. The use of these neo-Stalinist tactics adopted by some Obama idolators which conflate political disagreement with treason is something to be resisted at all times. You know like 501(c) organizations enforcing party ideology against their own? I believe you wrote an article on this did you not?

You may not see it my way............that is fine. However, I'm not exactly a kid, I have been around a lot of years. Stalin has nothing to do with this stupidity of people fomenting revolution. As for you "betting" on anything I do/do not say, you don't have that right either. You don't know me or my feelings. Those people are no more than spoiled children Stomping their feet and throwing a temper tantrum because they didn't get their way. Well, that is NOT how a country needs to be run. I re-iterate my previous statements whole-heartedly: They need to be arrested, brought up on charges of Treason and imprisoned. When one becomes an adult, we are supposed to "put away Childish Things". Do you think these people are acting in an adult manner? No they are not. They do not deserve the freedoms they have been given. Period.

My prediction for this unfortunate child is that she may grow up to be another hate filled "conservative", but more likely will follow her parent's lead till her mid teen years when she will become politically aware, and form her own opinions. Those opinions will likely be very different than her hateful parent(s), as she will be exposed to other points of view as she nears adulthood. Of course, this assumes she will reach adulthood, and not fall victim to accidentally shooting herself with the handgun her parent(s) owns and probably keeps within reach of the child.

BTW, great article! It's high time we fought back against the unpatriotic sleazeballs.

Fear nothing but fear itself and the GOP can't touch you.

Both sides peddle fear.

Obama has been peddling economic fear:

So much for "Worst Economy since the Great Depression"!

At least if you believe projections of the Congressional Budget Office, Federal Reserve, and Obama Administration itself.

No matter how often you hear the phrase "worst since the Great Depression" in the media (10,000 hits via Google News) or from politicians, such as from President Obama himself…

By now, it's clear to everyone that we have inherited an economic crisis as deep and dire as any since the days of the Great Depression…

… these numbers say something very different.

The CBO [.pdf] recently projected that even with no economic stimulus, unemployment would peak in 2009 at 9% and the "output gap" (the difference between actual and potential GDP) peak at 7.4%. That's about 20% less than 1982's unemployment rate of 10.8% and output gap of 8.9%.

The Federal Reserve has just projected unemployment peaking at 8.8%, with growth resuming in 2010.

And most optimistically, the Obama Administration's just-released budget projects unemployment at only 8.1% in 2009, and falling thereafter as average 4% growth follows over the four years 2010-2013. (There hasn't been even one year of growth over 3.7% since the 1990s.) Yes, that's starting next year, 2010, with a 3.2% GDP growth, the second-highest rate of the last 10 years!

These numbers would make the current recession worse than 1991, not nearly as bad as 1982, not as bad as 1975 -- none of which were anything like the Great Depression, of course.

So why the endless comparisons of today to the Great Depression by media and politicians alike?

Probably because they benefit by selling things to the public -- advertising and costly political programs respectively -- and "Worse Than 1991 But Not As Bad As 1982" wouldn't sell nearly as effectively. So they, well ... exaggerate.

OK, the media we understand, in the commercial marketplace it is everyone for himself and "caveat emptor".

But aren't we supposed to be able to trust our politicians? Do they not have a responsibility to be informed about the most important issues of our day ... to inform us accordingly ... and to exercise well informed and carefully measured judgment when enacting policy?

Would they really hype catastrophe to get their favored spending programs enacted in a rush, unexamined by the public?

Observer...please try to live up to your name....

There is a big difference between the Fear Mongering used by the right as a tool of propaganda and population manipulation, and educating the people of the risks facing us, so they can make better decisions..

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/07/22_politics.shtml

Four researchers who culled through 50 years of research literature about the psychology of conservatism report that at the core of political conservatism is the resistance to change and a tolerance for inequality, and that some of the common psychological factors linked to political conservatism include:

• Fear and aggression
• Dogmatism and intolerance of ambiguity
• Uncertainty avoidance
• Need for cognitive closure
• Terror management

Dan Hallo, please try and post a counter-argument to TO's well-buttressed post. Maybe you can Google up something from Jefferson?

So, Observer since you skated entirely around the whole armed insurection thingy, I take it that you approve of this tactic?

Will you pick up your weapon(s) and shoot your fellow countrymen who disagree with you? Who will you draw a bead on?

Who's first?

Go ahead, be a hero.

Bill.

I don't use google. I have a database I developed from the books I own and the Library of Congress data base.

And if you tell an untruth and know it, even if it's accepted by a certain faction of society as being true then it is worse then lying it is subversion and perjurious.

You are a disseminator of mendaciousness.

A Suppressor of truth. vs. "The principles of Jefferson are the axioms of a free society." --Abraham Lincoln

Wow. Don't flatter yourself, you're not in the same league.

I have a database I developed from the books I own and the Library of Congress data base.

Uh, huh. No doubt about that. It explains your risible attempts to make of Jefferson an apologist for modern statism which, of course, is diametrically opposed to his vision for the country.

Well I can see you faithfully follow the advise of your imperious leader.

“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it" ~ Adolf Hitler

Would they really hype catastrophe to get their favored spending programs enacted in a rush, unexamined by the public?

Isn't that what Bush&Co did for their banking buddies just before they left office? With no oversight to boot. I think Obama has done a better job in that department even tho he was rushed, by all the experts, to move quickly. If anyone 'hypes catastrophe' it was the Bush administration.

The hype is in "not letting a crisis go to waste"

Lisa

Sorry about the repeats. My system was doing a virus scan when I posted that which may explain the multiples. As to my use of a thesaurus, I don't even own one having no need for same.

Fortunately, I am willing to undertake the task of educating the rabble even in a forum that fills me with Weltschmerz.

Lisa

Like all Far-Righties, Hitler stole this from a Liberal.. Jefferson who was talking about Hamilton... the first great American Conservative Aristocrat POS.. and turned a warning into actual political policy. 

"By oft repeating an untruth, men come to believe it themselves." --Thomas Jefferson to John Melish, 1813.

Ten dollar words from a two dollar mind.

Overdrawn?

Considering the original article was about Rush, Hannity, Malkin et al., and seeing as how everyone is quoting:

"No man, for any considerable period, can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude, without finally getting bewildered as to which may be the true."

-Hawthorne

something new, great quote.....

Really Bill.

Are you going to be an disseminator of seditious propaganda all you life?

It's not a lie...I watched that rally...heard it with my own ears...

It was being recorded and reported by more than one single set of microphones. I heard it too on the news, and so mus have heard millions as well.

Bill's current efforts look like a grotesque attempt at erasing the past. And it looks like he has a team behind him.

Not a lie Bill.

How long are you going to deny that you adhere to a party that is way too comfortable with the thought of causing the President of the Unites States phsycial harm?

So they send the Secret Service out to do a BS "investigation". You think all the other wack jobs at a Palin rally are going to give one of their own? Yeah right.

Reminds me of the kid at an Easter egg hunt, where apon not finding any eggs, declares the whole thing a hoax because he couldn't find any.

I heard it. As did many other people.

And then Obama stepped in took all the eggs and redistributed them....

What eggs?

Oh the eggs Bush redistributed to the rich.

Yeah, them we need back...

Lisa

Are you calling the Secret Service liars because if you read my link that was their statement about the "kill him" bull@!$%# you're spreading:

SCRANTON – The agent in charge of the Secret Service field office in Scranton said allegations that someone yelled "kill him" when presidential hopeful Barack Obama's name was mentioned during Tuesday's Sarah Palin rally are unfounded.

Bill Harrison,

I wonder whom to believe: You and your Internet link, or my lying eyes and ears.

Bill Ayers. Jesus, can you people read or are you just being obdurately ignorant of these facts?

Why is it that boiling kittens in oil is funny to a very few sick minority, but to most people it's horrific? Which side of this coin is normal?

What is the definition of insanity? Is it the same as psychotic?

I think that there is, as with all talents and abilities, a normal range of variation in the ability to feel empathy within Human beings.

From Mother Teresa's on one side of the curve to Charles Manson, and Hitler of the Far-Right end...

Neo-con"s are admittedly on the right of the mean... to varying degree's, give or take a standard deviation leading to the extreme of.. psychotic.

And for this reason, I'd trust someone on the left with my kids, before someone on the right. So they may at wose just go in the back yard and hug a tree, its far better then the alternative on the opposite side of curve. This is nothing new.

"The want or imperfection of the moral sense in some men, like the want or imperfection of the senses of sight and hearing in others, is no proof that it is a general characteristic of the species." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Law, 1814.

So why do the Right Hate the left? Simple, Because they are incapable of recognizing, any qualities they do not have within themselves.

They see everything only as being some machiavellian plot to gain power, because that is how they think. Altruism is insanity to a Neo-con, a weakness to be exploited. They don't see it or even believe it is a strength they will never know, and it's why they will always loose.

AWM

Truer words never spoken. It's a form of mass delusion on the order of, "I want it to be true, therefore it must be true."

Here we are, as has been for months if not years...Libs twisting what people say! He wants BO's Socialistic (or worse) plan to fail...that's all! I think Americans would not give up their freedoms easily!

It depends on what is is...right. And i did hear. She has been caught using the term whitey, as well as other "racial" terms, not just her either. You do not have the right though to throw words like unpatriotic at people simply because they differ in opinion than you. It's a pretty bold satement that has been tossed around alot lately by both partys. Guess it has lost its meaning. And let me amend myself you do have the right to say that, because of all the unpatriotic people who fought for your rights.

liar and fool...nice combination

Jared;

Get over it Maybe she did, maye she didn't. At least her words didn't kill almost 5000 of our young and dedicated.

I was never in her or Baracks company so I was never privileged to hear their private speech about whitey.

Another example jared of misinformation...Michelle said "I've never been SO proud of my country in my adult life as I am now...." SO proud...if you heard her original comment as I did, you would not question it at all...that one word SO...makes it a whole different statement...FAUX news deliberately took that word out...ask yourself why...why did they do that?

Lisa,

You are a source of misinformation! Actual quotes follow: (Please admit your mistake. Thanks.)

ABC News:

Michelle Obama: "For the First Time in My Adult Lifetime, I'm Really Proud of My Country"

February 18, 2008 8:24 PM

Speaking in Milwaukee, Wisconsin today, would-be First Lady Michelle Obama said, "for the first time in my adult life I am proud of my country because it feels like hope is finally making a comeback."

Then in Madison, she said, "For the first time in my adult lifetime, I'm really proud of my country, and not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change."

(Watch the video of this second comment HERE.)

But why would she use honest quotes, Observer. It is the tactic of fear-mongers( on the Left and on the Right) like Lisa who throw out half-quoted quotes, misrepresent the truth in an effort to push their own agenda. Uses of phrases like all Congressman- you would call John McCain or Ron Paul unpatriotic? I guess they would if they don't stand lock-step with in you in your beliefs. I am all for having opinions but they need to be based on reality. How you color that reality is due to your own set of beliefs and agendas but at least report facts accurately.

I got it. ABC News is lying. Twice.

Liberals can never admit something as human as making a mistake.

You cite the media when it supports you , then out-right deny they have any credibilty when it doesn't. Sounds like your being pretty ignorant of the truth, when its staring you right in the face. Its on tape, not at one network, but all of them.

And the Chicago Sun-Times must be lying too!

Michelle Obama's words immediately ignited a firestorm, one that burns on today, by declaring:

"Hope is making a comeback and, let me tell you, for the first time in my adult life, I am proud of my country. Not just because Barack is doing well, but I think people are hungry for change."

Jared,

Lisa has an agenda and she will not let the truth get in the way of that agenda.

yeah sooo whats ur point observer, are you saying the first lady is a radical that hates her country? or are you just throwing out bsone liners and hoping they stick.

It's funny how when rush and coilter uses their racist venomous hate, the same people who defend them are the same people who think the first lady is racist.

alllllllllllllllllrighty then.

That may be the understatement of the new year.

So what exactly is the issue with her being proud of her country for the first time? I hate to say this but we have been going down hill as a nation for a long long time and this is the first glimmer of hope to get us back to the nation we once were and one that we can all be proud of again. Just living here doesn't not demand a sense pride, unless you are a mindless dolt who is patriotic no matter what negative things our government has done. Her words were honest and represent a very large portion of our nation. This country has slipped its time to right it again.

when I look around at the fools and idiots following a fat drug addicted obese and unhinged man who prefers sex tourism to being a family values adult and Christian, when I look at those who follow gleefully a demagogue of low and vile nature like this drug addict who beleives himself capable of giving damage to the president of our country from within.

When i see these people cheering for failure of a good Americans, decent educated fine Americans who care and have been honestly and widely elected...

And these same damn fools are overwhelmed with joy at the promotion of a boy toy to speaker for their politics and religion of conservatism and bigotry...

well I don't see people worth saying a thing to.

I see a group of dysfunctional and dirty bigots, fools on a grand scale and liars beneath any answer. i see the mangy remains of hate, political rejection and bile and I say lets just get them behind us....

Because if anything, I am looking at nothing I can be proud of as an American. I see nothing whatsoever to be proud of at all, nothing that a normal rational adult would be proud of.

I can see exactly where the first lady is coming from and I'm not even black.

Upswing, I have a hard time believing these two statements. Maybe you can help me see it that way. I have a couple of questions for you if that is okay.

"I don't think that this racism and rabblerousing has anything at all to do with most Republicans.""Don't forget that the true Republicans of America were just as relieved as the Democrats when the Neocons -- in te form of Bush/Cheney -- got handed their arses in the last election."

Why don't they speak out about the hate and contempt that spewed out of most each and every person that attended CPAC convention? Why do they tolerate the divisive tone and the ridiculous claims these memers of their party make. Why do those other Republicans sit silently by and let these people ruin their party? Why don't the sane members do something?

Bull...

did you hear the republicans leader give his state of the union speech today? It was covered live on cnn and fox. It is the republican party as a whole that has lost any collective desire for rational politics not just some fringe. There is no differance any more.

The Republican Party has choosen a madman as its leader and a 13 old as its voice. Sarah Palin awaits with her pentacostal background for Rush to decide just who he will bestow his shine on. It is out of control and it is not just as few. It is en masse this is happening.

teresa:

Why don't they speak out about the hate and contempt that spewed out of most each and every person that attended CPAC convention? Why do they tolerate the divisive tone and the ridiculous claims these memers of their party make. Why do those other Republicans sit silently by and let these people ruin their party? Why don't the sane members do something?

Excellent questions. Thank you.

In my opinion, I actually think that this has started happening already. As recenly as Jindal's much-criticized speech, the GOP was touting the past eight years as failure and not representative of the Republican Party (Both of which statements are true.). The GOP is currenly having to rebrand itself as being the Republican Party of old.

For instance, a lot of this stimulus resistance is about the GOP trying to shake off the stultifying reputation of their party using the last eight years to spend like there's no tomorrow -- in Iraq, on new government departments, in outsourcing and just plain graft and waste.

The Neocon nutjobs are trying to parlay that rebranding into a manufactured "grass roots movement" towards civil war.

I'm not a Republican and I'll never be one. I believe in (appropriate and responsible) government and welfare prgrams, particularly when it comes to protecting the weak, young and elderly.

I also have a Libertarian streak in me, so I do see what Republicans used to say about curtailing costs, keeping government small etc.

Whatever my own politics, I can say that, invariably, the Republicans I know personally are just regular, decent, honest, hardworking folk who sincerely want this country to succeed every bit as much as you and I do.

These aren't the people who are trying to tear this country down. And, yes, they should be more vocal in their opposition to what's being done in their name by the Neocon nutjobs (who are actually a liberal group, historically).

But this is hard when so many of the "Republican" leaders are still invested in Neocon philosophy and practice.

I think that, as the dust settles, and we move further toward extreme civil unrest in the US and abroad, the true Republican leaders -- the everyday local political leaders, military and police leadership and the like -- will step forward and make a stand.

There are extreme actors on the left and right, but it always seems as though, when the waters start to roil, the moderates from each side manage to get things back on an even keel.

Indeed, I believe that to a good 90% of the country it doesn't matter a toss who is labelled Republican and who labelled Democrat, since, when it comes to wanting the best for the country, we are all the same, even if out methods are different.

Besides, the Party line thing is simply a marketing mechanism used to promote a ridiculous and failed two-party system of governance. But that's for another post ...

Sitting here thinking,who will fight in the civil war for the neo cons.Surely they won't fight,never have never will.Guess they will get their uneducated goobers out of their double wides to do the fighting for them.Good thing I brought back those automatic weapons from Vietnam.

Everyone watches too much tv. The US will not have a 2nd civil way, the country will not die. This too shall pass drama queens.

vendetta:

Everyone watches too much tv.

I hear it makes them offer wild generalizations as support for random statements...

1-number:

Sitting here thinking,who will fight in the civil war for the neo cons.

The system has been so arranged by eight years of Neocon social engineering that the choices will come from:

The US military.

The National Guard.

"Blackwater"

The Mexican Military.

The Canadian Military.

Various military forces from Eastern Europe (Already on US soil).

And the nation's police forces.

Please don't go black helicopter on me.Although I expect someone on here to blame all our problems on fluoride in the drinking water. I still have faith in our constitution,and even though the government might kill your wife and children and perhaps put you in an internment camp you can always look forward to an apology 30-40 years down the road. The Canadian military?????????

The Canadian military?????????

LOL, Yes, we'll send our one plane and two soldiers to get y'all.

You guys have planes in Canada? I thought we just had to worry about the dog sled attack vehicles and the anti-submarine kayaks but now you tell mo you got a plane? OMG Run for the hills!!!

Jeff-Las Vegas,

Have you ever been hit upside the head by a hockey puck from a slapshot? Don't mess with Canada, I am telling you.

gladbutterfly,

Yes, we'll send our one plane and two soldiers to get y'all.

Can the plane be towed that far south??

1 number:

The Canadian military?????????

Indeed.

Here's the link to the Northern Command Web page that confirms Bush's illegal treaty that allows Canadian military to use lethal force on US citizens on US soil in times of civil unrest.

http://www.northcom.mil/News/2008/021408.html

Northern Command, if you recall, is the outfit that, in blatant violation of Posse Comitatus, now has a batallion of Iraqi-blooded US miltary at its full-time disposal to use firearms, microwave pain machines and other "crowd control" technology used in Iraq on US citizens on US soil.

The European troops are involved in an exchange program of sorts, in which they live here for a while.

While they are here, they train alongside US military to learn crown control techniques and they conduct live house-to-house searches in real people's houses, and traffic stops of real people's cars in ordinary US neigborhoods.

They are also available to be called upon during civil unrest in the US.

I don't know their status per lethal force. But I do think that it would be easier for these foreign troops to open fire on US citizens than it would be for US troops to open fire on their own countrymen.

As for your cliched comment about helicopters: With respect, you don't have a clue what's going on, do you?

From what I've heard, from a guy that just finished boot camp up there, the canadian military has been on a serious growth spurt and huge spending spree. They used to buy our crap after we were done with it but have begun purchasing new. I'm guessing they are feeling that we aren't the strength to rely on like we used to be.

I'm just stupefied!

Pigs will fly before foreign troops are ever used against American civilians. You sir are clueless.

1 Number:

Pigs will fly before foreign troops are ever used against American civilians. You sir are clueless.

You're not arguing with me, here. You're arguing with the information that is on the Northern Command Web Site.

I don't think I've come across a more blatant case of denial.

You have information from an authoritative -- actually, the seminal -- source right in front of you, and you're just arbitrarly deciding that the information doesn't exist.

Maybe you're embarrassed to have been so certain -- and so completely, entirely and emphatically wrong -- in your initial response?

If so, chill.

You were wrong.

Get over it and move on.

There's no need to go into some kind of psychological meltdown in which you simply deny the reality of what's right in front of your eyes.

That's actually a little freaky ...

Much of the Canadian revamping of their military is due to increased North West territory issues. also note since the economic conditions of the USA are deteriorating migratory workers are now entering Canada in record numbers, only to find that the economy of Canada is not much better then the USA.

we have been training foreign troops in this country forever.In the 60's and 70's every banana republic in central and south America had troops training at our military bases.Now we probably have eastern European,middle east,and every other country with open sewerage.A little clue for you,just because something on the Internet says it's this or that,doesn't make it true.But I'm sure you knew that.

1 Number:

Thank you for moderating your tone and for getting beyond the Canadian military info.

Per:

A little clue for you,just because something on the Internet says it's this or that,doesn't make it true.

The points you make about the historical precedent of foreign troops training in this country is information that is also locted on the Internet, so, in this case at least, I'm assuming that we would agree that this online information is acceptable to both of us, since I agree with you on this point.

The difference between the programs you describe as pre-existing and the new program I mentioned, however, is that this is the first time that foreign troops have been allowed to participate in live US civilian policing duties -- i.e. as I mentioned, actually going into US Citizens' homes and cars without those citizens' permission.

It is this access that is at the heart of my legitimate concern.

This concern is historically grounded: many illegitimate governments over the centuries have relied on foreign troops to do domestic policing/population control duties that domestic military personnel would -- as you rightly allude to -- find distasteful. (e.g. The Ceasers' Pretorian guards, made up of Germans, Swiss etc )

Most of the foreign troop training that you're talking about was CIA-driven and was designed to help those miitaries (generally controlled by dictators) maintain their CIA-friendly and often CIA-installed governments.

These training programs had nothing at all to do with allowing foreign troops authoritarian access to our domestic, civilian population.

Now these programs do, and that bothers me.

I'm curious: Why doesn't it bother you?

I think you made both of our points in your 1st post. You said Illegal Bush policy.But let me say something,this is not pie in the sky rhetoric,If foreign troops were EVER used against American civilians, you would see the 2nd American revolution.There are hoards of us who would dust of our assault weapons some which are full automatic and start killing them and anyone who supports them.And you don't have to tell me I'd be killed probably so,but there are some things worth dieing for.

1 Number:

foreign troops were EVER used against American civilians, you would see the 2nd American revolution.

This is quite possible.

But this doesn't disprove -- or even address -- the fact that Canadian (and US) military now have the (illegally granted) power to use lethal force against US citizens on US soil.

That was and is my only point.

For some reason, you decided to act like that was some insane concoction of my imagination, even after I directed you to the official press release on the NorthCom site supporting that fact.

Now you have wandered off (alone) into a whole other discussion ...

As far as that other "discussion" goes, I admire your strength of conviction, and I agree that, if the Canadian (or US) military starts killing US citizens, then it is our duty to resist with all means at our disposal.

But this does not mean that it won't happen. And it does not mean that the US and Canadian Miliatries do not have the permission and power to use lethal force against us.

jaywow67:

40+ million republicans voted for McCain. You are trying to tell me that that the Neocons number 40 million?

Jon MCain was, with the GOP leadership's blessing, the Republican Party's nomination in a two-party election.

What choice did they have? Vote for Obama?

If they don't agree with neocons, yes, or one of the parties running, or not vote.

jaywow:

If they don't agree with neocons, yes, or one of the parties running, or not vote.

But McCain was running as a Republican, not a neocon. i.e. He misrepresented himself. The Republican faithful were, and continue to be, hoodwinked by the Neocons.

For instance, the Neocons are, by philosophy, a-religious. Yet millions from the Christian Right voted for the "re-born" Bush...

McCain didn't receive that level of support from that cohort, but he did receive a good chunk of that Christian Republican support, which he would not have received if he had revealed himself to be a Neocon.

HippoCritte:

We don't like this country being turned into a socialist regime by people who want to tear up the Constitution of The United States of America. We will fight to the bitter end to keep our God given rights that this country's founders fought for.

George Bush's family funded and supported Hitler and the Nazis (i.e. Socialist) party before, during and after WWII. Prescott Bush, GW's granddaddy, was part of a group that attempted to stage a military coup in the US by murdering FDR and establishing a Nazi-style government.

George Bush referred to the Consitution of the United States as "A Goddamned piece of paper," and he proceeded to do his best to make that Goddamned piece of paper meaningless.

People such as yourself who read the Bible and throw your reading around like it's some kind of ugly weapon should be ashamed of themselves.

And people who believe that God would have given only Americans their "God-given rights" are extraordinarily narrow minded and anti Scripture.

It is actually possible to read the Bible and have the good sense to pay heed to its teaching of humanity, love and acceptance -- remember that the Bible was compiled for the people being oppresed, not the people doing the oppressing.

It is possible to live by its intent and stay true to its words.

If all you're doing is reading the Bible and using its words to justify your rather ugly vision of the world, as seems to be the case, then you' are doing nothing very useful with that wonderfully rich text, and you might just as well stop wasting the time you spend misreading it.

Well done upswing, its amazing those that protest about what they think President Obama wants to do with to the consitution while forgetting how they defended what we know Presidnet Bush did to our constitution, rule of law, hatch act, just to name a few.

Lisa as usual well done.

Just as sick and confused as the parents who have allowed the complete brainwashing of their own child so he can be paraded about and give his trained spiel for the rapture and glee of the morons who attend the events...

Putting a 13 year old in this for the politics you hold...

I see the traitors to the country but traitor to your own children as well....thats a kind of predator I dont' understand at all.

I think i'll read harry potter. It's better fiction :)

Im dumbed down because I make a silly joke about the bible?

lol not a problem!

Oh yea. You might want to start reading the Bible sometime too.

I do read the bible and this sums it up for me:

Matthew 25:37-45 (New International Version)

³⁷"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? ³⁸When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? ³⁹When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

⁴⁰"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

⁴¹"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. ⁴²For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, ⁴³I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

⁴⁴"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

⁴⁵"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:37-45;&version=31;

Its the far right who falls into the second category. Selfish greedy and not concerned with the poor and needy.

jdoyle:

Its the far right who falls into the second category. Selfish greedy and not concerned with the poor and needy.

Stop it!

The Bible is not a weapon with which to wage personal battles or to settle old scores.

Don't just quote it.

Understand it.

Stop it!

Facts are a bitch!

PNB,

usually you would be right, but in the instances the author laid out, a line has definately been crossed.

An election happened, we've change course and pendulum has swung. And its funny Obama himself is very middle of the road, especially when you look at his stance on war, domestic spying, prosecution of the last administrations crimes. But it seems the grieving period for the conservatives is taking longer than usual.

I will admit I was/am a Bush basher, but at no time did I wish harm to the country, that can't be said of this group.

Personally I prefer the Hannitized Rushen Koolaid,

Less tobacco, more little blue pills with that oxygenated natural fabric flavor.

Pretty tough behind your keyboard.

I do not want this fight, hell I don't want any fight at all. But...

While I fear the fight and the war. While I don’t want death or harm to come to anyone...I am saying loud and clear that I will stand there and fight the ignorant evil bastards with words at first then more if that is needed.

They need to know that, they need to see that they are not free to do as they will without challenge. I hope it gives pause. I hope it gives a reason to reconsider to them.

Whatever happens though I am right here and I will do what I have to to stop these ignorant fools. That is what it means to me to be an adult, I hope a reasoning adult. It is what it means to me to be an American. A free man, a citizen of this place and of my time.

If someone doesn't stand against those who preach the hate and the plague of hate then what is to stop it?

We will come together, we are coming together now.

Dan Hallo has a good article on hate...very lucid call to look within and choose wisely...

http://zoilus.newsvine.com/_news/2009/02/22/2464389-i-hate-your-guts-but-its-only-because-you-deserve-it?last=1236081235&threadId=508460&commentId=5718224#master

ALL of you might need a reminder to be wary of that which you 'hate'....

Lisa if the stimulus doesn't pan out he'll certainly run for a second term. He's a career politician, he knows nothing else. His stance with the lobbyists is grandstanding at best. They funded him and helped put him into office. For him to fight them is akin to cutting off the hand that feeds him.

"Thanks for being my repub friend Dry...I know you want more from your party...believe it or not, we all do...desperately"

Lisa I want different from my party but for other reasons than you assume. Bush wasn't a conservative. He was more liberal with money than any other president until....well....Obama. We Republicans want a conservative leader. We want them to fight a liberal minded stimulus package that will do nothing to fix the economy. If they give in to the liberals for whatever reason then I would certainly be demanding more from my party.

For you to accuse the Republicans of treason because they don't buy into the stimulus is inaccurate. They have their base to represent as well as the liberals have theirs. The Democrats have been obstructionists and partisan over the years. They have fought legislation that was beneficial to America over the years. Does that make them treasonous? Does it?

Lisa you're missing the point. Everything that you accuse the Republicans of the Democrats have done also at one point or another. Welcome to the grim reality of politics Lisa. You cannot tell me for one moment that Pelosi and Reid worked to their best ability with Bush to help solve any of the economic issues we were facing. They purposefully held off on a stimulus package because they wanted Obama to get full credit for any good that it brought this country. They also wanted to draft it themselves to toss money to their special interests. Is that what's in the best interests of this country? Is it? Think of all the folks that lost their jobs because the stimulus was held off for so long. Is that fair to them?

So far as the Republicans throwing the election to let the Dems face this economy. That's just plain ridiculous. Sorry for being so blunt but I couldn't think of any other way to say it. They tried very hard to win this election. With the anti Bush sentiment and the fact that the media is absolutely in love with Obama, the Dems were guaranteed a win. Elmo from Sesame Street could have won this election. This was a slam dunk for the Dems.

So far as Obama and the blame game. He's real quick to blame this mess on the previous administration. Wow imagine that. However he's in charge now. The economy and the outcome of this mess rests solely on his shoulders. He needs to man up take the up the fight and do what's best for this country. And he certainly will not accomplish that as long as he's under the influence of special interests. Taking a stance against lobbyists is laughable at best. They ponied up a lot of money to put him there. His insincerity is so blatantly obvious it's just plain laughable.

So far as Rush. He loves all this free publicity. He just sold a few thousand more books because of this latest press. He thanks you all.

Do I want the president to fail?

Of course not. Unfortunately the path he's chosen is leading us there. I hope and pray that I'm wrong.

Open revolt????? Are you crazy? Rush Limbaugh is a very opinionated person. You give him way too much credit for the influence he had over folks. People listen to him because many times he speaks a whole lot of sense. However he is far from being the conservative voice. Far far from it. You guys are creating a mountain out of a molehill believe me.

Mob Rule????? LOL That's just ridiculous. Obama is the one galvanizing the right against him not us. He's done nothing but exclude the GOP and promote a far left agenda since elected. You could only have imagined a more blatant foe for the Republicans other than Obama. He's as far left as any leader we've ever had. By the way, those beliefs exclude the majority of this country. He'd better wise up or his support will dry up real quick. Where will he be then?

Your witch hunt bears no fruit fella. Sorry.......

Lisa... are you serious? You guys got a lot of stock invested in this guy. You've talked him up and hyped him up so much you've got to follow it through, at least for now. Remember Bush's poll numbers in the first term? They were a lot higher than the low 60,s, where Obama's are now. Keep in mind Obama started in the high 80's. The trend is a far cry from an increase in his polls. As his failures pile up one on top of the other these poll numbers will only go lower.

Did I say at one time Obama created this mess? Come on Lisa. I said regardless of where the problem began he's responsible for it now. He's got to man up and take the fight up. Why are you putting words in my mouth? Don't do that Lisa, please, don't do that.

I will say this though Lisa. As Obama comes up short and his failures pile up on top of each other you're going to see more of these "distractions" being reported. Rather than focus on the matter at hand. That matter being our economy is hemorrhaging value as we speak, and all the media wants to talk about Rush Limbaugh.

As he comes up short on delivery of promises, the media is going to report stories on "threats to Obama's life" or "Obama receives racist emails". It's plain silly Lisa. The man was hired to do a job, he needs to do it and stop making excuses on his shortcomings and get to work. Is the media constantly going to play the race card to make folks sympathize with him and remain supportive? How utterly cowardly. I guess he's the piper and we're supposed to be the mice that follow him around anywhere he goes. Not me.

So far as my expectation Lisa. The man had 780 billion opportunities to get the ball rolling. He funded special interests and spent the money in such a way that consumer confidence was unaffected. As our stock market indicates. When I see this kind of decision making by our Congress and the President my expectations are in the gutter. Don't worry though we'll just print another 780 billion in the next few months and we'll see what happens then.

Actually Dan, Hamilton was beloved by George Washington and the Federalist party. Hamilton updated the military destroyed after the revolution. His party also brought peace with Great Britain. Hamilton's policies also created a sinking fund to pay off war debt to balance the budget. A large base of our federal power and strength as a nation we can thank for Hamilton. Aaron Burr (Vice President) was chased across the country as a fugitive before leaving the country with an idea to return and secede from the Union. Please check your history.

Actually Dan, Hamilton was beloved by George Washington and the Federalist party.

John Adams was President and he despised Hamilton.

During his one term as president, he was frustrated by battles inside his own Federalist party against a faction led by Alexander Hamilton,

Please check your History sir, you couldn't pass the exam that an immigrant takes to become an American Citizen.

The Anti-Federalists headed by Thomas Jefferson founded the Democratic Party as a congressional caucus to fight for the Bill of Rights and against the elitist Federalist Party headed by Hamilton.

Hamilton was never popular with the Majority and didn't even believe in Democracy, He wanted George Washington to be a King.

Of course he Lied about it and wrote some of the Federlist papers, still he never had the courage to sign any of them. And was totally discredited. After the war of 1812.

In 1798, the "party of the common man" was officially named the Democratic-Republican Party then in 1800 elected Jefferson as the first Democratic PotUS

Jefferson served two distinguished terms and was followed by James Madison in 1808. Madison strengthened America's armed forces — helping reaffirm American independence by defeating the British in the War of 1812.... not Hamilton who was distrusted now by Madison as well.

James Monroe was elected president in 1816 and led America through a time known as "The Era of Good Feeling" that the Democratic-Republicans had no real opposition. And then the Federalists Party was dead by 1824.

Flfunnyboy

History isn't Dan's strong suit. Propaganda's more his game. See, since my first days on Newsvine ole Dan's been trying to convince people that Thomas Jefferson was some kind of Founding-era statist leftie like our current crowd both here on the Vine and in government. Now that might fly with a bunch of h.s. sophomores but for anyone with an education it's sidesplittingly hilarious given Jefferson's advocacy of a weak central government, states rights and agrarianism which was in direct conflict with Hamilton's vision of the country as a society based on commerce with a strong central government and institutions like the First Bank of the United States.

History isn't Dan's strong suit.

Not your orwellian History, When did the the FAR-Right start caring about the past? Except to take History out of context?

So yes... Dispelling revisionist History is one of my strong suites. I give links to Historic documents, what evidence do you have Jefferson lied or was mistaken?

History explains what we are experiencing today, it is not new what we a re going through.. The Hamiltonian privately owned banks and paper money, gambling on the work of others by the wealthy, these ideas are doing SOOO well. And agrarianism is just another word for the importance of farming. This was the GNP in the days of our founding Fathers, and it was based on agricultural and production, and the spread of Housing, farms Business's and Homstead.

The caveat to being a citizen, and having the right to vote, that you had to own property, was not saying that the rich are to be favored as the Republican try to make it seem.

This was Country building. We were forging a new Nation out of wilderness.

Transients, carpetbaggers, opportunist, could not be citizens.

People had to "Have a Stake" in the country, a vested interest, in order to be responsable members of the community. They had to have property. This is still the American Dream.

And having a strong middle class, by not allowing the wealthy to buy our vote, that has ALWAYS end with the destruction of every republic and democracy, was fresh in the hearts and minds of all but the surviving Loyalist and wealthy Aristocracy who saw Democracy as rule by ignorant peasants. They saw a Rule of the people, by the people and for the people as to Large of a government. And this is the same mantra of the Conservatives today.

This is the difference between propaganda and the truth. A disseminator disinformation, uses sound-bites of history, taken out of context to suppress Truth. Hiding the Forest behind a few trees.

in direct conflict with Hamilton's vision of the country as a society based on commerce with a strong central government

Really, and this is American Democracy... How?

Alexander Hamilton, bsecretary of the treasury,letter to Colonel Edward Carrington of Virginia, May 26, 1792

"it was not till the last session [of Congress] that I become unequivocally convinced of the following truth: 'That Mr. Madison, cooperating with Mr. Jefferson [the secratary of state], is at the head of the faction decidedly hostile to me and my administration; and actuated by views, in my judgement, subersive of the principles of good government and dangerous to the ...

They have a womanish attachment to France and a womanish [ie; Bed wetting Liberals] resentment against Great Britain.

....

"A word on another point. I am told that serious apprehensions are disseminated in your state [Virginia] as to the existence of a monarchical party meditating the destruction of State and republican government. If it is possible that so absurd an idea can gain ground, it is necessary that it should be combated. I assure you, on my private faith and honor as a man, that there is not, in my judgement, a shadow of foundation for it. A very small number of men indeed may entertain theories less republican than Mr. Jefferson and Mr. Madison, but I am persuaded there is not a man among them who would not regard as both criminal and visionary any attempt to subvert the republican system of the country."

Sure Rush...ah I mean Alex...

This is why modern Neo-cons [just the most resent manifestation and brand name, of a very old faction, who lost power after the the defeat of 'The Divine Right of Kings" like to use numbered Lists. Separate facts, Historical or otherwise, without any real empirical connections, leading to some manufactured truth.

"All the capital employed in paper speculation is barren and useless, producing, like that on a gaming table, no accession to itself, and is withdrawn from commerce and agriculture where it would have produced addition to the common mass... It nourishes in our citizens habits of vice and idleness instead of industry and morality... It has furnished effectual means of corrupting such a portion of the legislature as turns the balance between the honest voters whichever way it is directed." --Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1792.

Hmmm, sounds familiar doesn't it.

Dan Halo:

When did the the FAR-Right start caring about the past? Except to take History out of context?

Okay ... So let me get this straight ...

Ronald Reagan really wasn't a great president...?

His hero status is just a Neocon-created lie that is part of a cynical and concerted effort at a revisionist history that glosses over Reagan's and their own inhumanity and incompetence?

But how can that be? ... We named an airport after him ...

History isn't Dan's strong suit. Propaganda's more his game. See, since my first days on Newsvine ole Dan's been trying to convince people that Thomas Jefferson was some kind of Founding-era statist leftie like our current crowd both here on the Vine and in government. Now that might fly with a bunch of h.s. sophomores but for anyone with an education it's sidesplittingly hilarious given Jefferson's advocacy of a weak central government, states rights and agrarianism which was in direct conflict with Hamilton's vision of the country as a society based on commerce with a strong central government and institutions like the First Bank of the United States.

Spot on, Bill. I've noticed the same thing.

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.

Did you say the same thing when people were protesting the lies which started the Iraq war?

I doubt it.

Dissent is fine but wishing your country would fail, to promote a right wing agenda is wrong.

The Observer:

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.

No it's not.

Don't be so ridiculous.

Dissent is treason unless you want a civil war. Period.

It is treanous to not support the 1st amendment.

As for Civil War, you need much more than signs and rhetoric.

BTW, do any of you Leftists realize how few times this country has convicted someone of treason and how high the standards are?

Good thing for Bill Ayers...

As much as I agree, that The Observer:is a tool.

Sedition is treason. Dissent is Democracy, but far from the Highest form of patriotism. like an ideal. The way that The Observer means it is Anti-American, not a difference in opinion but in the very principles that founded America. Freedom from suppression and tolerance for others values. The right want to suppress the free expression of all values not their own.

a Patriot supports his country all the time, and his government when it deserves it. Samuel Clemens

Personal attacks are against the COH, Dan.

Sedition is treason. Dissent is Democracy

Dan I know you get it and I'm glad you keep reminding people that it is dissent (preferably civil) that holds leaders and decision makers accountable. If we start banning shoes because they might get thrown in our leaders faces we miss the point... on this you are always right on.

The United States Code at 18 U.S.C. § 2381 states: "whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."

To commence a trial of treason you need two witnesses to an individual speaking or acting for committing treason, for example declaring unwillingness to uphold the Constitution. While it is difficult to prove treason, the process alone will set an example and my guess is we will see a trial like this in the near future. CPAC speaking about nuking American cities and Sean Hannity speaking for a revolution are already in the grey area, and with further dissent and general disrespect for our Democratic elected president - also in our military - we are already on our "merry" way.

Now I agree that you can choose to dissent if your purpose is a civil war or an independent state like when we fought England. The Declaration of Independence is a good example of that. But that is in my opinion the only other way to "get around" not following the course of democracy.

You are not a tool of the Neo-con Republicans Observer?

That's not a personal attack it's an observation...isn't that what you claim as you monicker, why can't you tell the difference?

Don't use the CoH to hide behind.

Calling Observer a tool is not against CoH.

You nailed it Dan. I am still waiting to see if Observer agreed with that thought when people were protesting the Iraq war. I notice he does not have the guts to answer.

I'm quite moderate, Dan.

I want a strong defense.

I support abortion rights.

I support gay marriage.

I support free speech.

Most Republicans are not some ridiculous stereotype that the Left promotes.

As a liberal/progressive/Democrat I totally agree that dissent is one of the props of patriotism. Dissent is not encouring sedition, armed rebellion, lies, threats, name calling, or any of the things that the nutcase conservatives and rightwingers are doing.

Most reasonable people know there won't be civil war. The military service won't rebel and join the stupidity of the mouth foamers. As much as they would like to dream.

I was very much in discent of the Bush administration. However, he was my CinC. I obeyed his orders, as asnine as I personally felt they were.

The Observer, isn't, he is six shooter and once he has fired his blanks he's done. If you look over his comments they are all the same.

I have become a firm believer the way to handle the people on the vine that actually do violate the CoH against you or someone else is to report them then do nothing but try to keep flooding them with facts, as nicely as you can. My mom use to tell me while someone is yelling at you, just smile at them, it just drives them nuts. Of course most of them here that's a very short drive, don't cha know. *_* :)

I'm quite moderate, Dan.

And I'm a Liberal who owns and is good with a gun and believes in the death penalty under certain circumstances. The First Amendment that says Government shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech, that is twisted by the Far-Right to mean that no one has the right to not listen to their BS and to make them STFU is not in the constitution., No you don't have a right to incite sedation and violence. I Newsvine does have the right to set rules regulating what is said in there Website.

I know a lunatic fringe dwelling White Supremacist, who believes in abortion...that dosn't make him a moderate. Hitler believed in forced retroactive abortion, and millions experienced it. Was he a Far-Right moderate?

What sophistry.

I'm quite moderate, Dan.

You could never tell by some of the garbage you seed and the comments you post.

"During times of war, hatred becomes quite respectable, even though it has to masquerade often under the guise of patriotism." -Howard Thurman

"When a whole nation is roaring Patriotism at the top of its voice, I am fain to explore the cleanness of its hands and the purity of its heart." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."- Samuel Johnson

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross"-Sinclair Lewis

Funny how so many have seen how patriotism is used as a shroud to cover true intentions.

Observer, I DID catch you accusing those who agree with Lisa as being Stalinist, or Marxist...I DID report that....

Personal attacks are against the COH, Dan

...just puttin' in my two cents....

"Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels - men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion." Dwight D. Eisenhower

What are you talking about LT? You must be confusing me with someone else. Show me where I did this, OK?

Thank you.

In that part at least, you are correct Observer. It was a person called squeeborock or Something like that.

Calling Observer a tool is not against CoH

Ok then Dan Hallo and LFF are tools of neo-Stalinist leftists.

neo-Stalinist leftists.

Nice attempt to antagonize... this is all you seem to know...If it's not true, it's name calling. I'm a Jeffersonian Democrat, if you bothered to ask me I would have told you, but you don't care do you.

Jeffersonian Democrats are also called Liberals, and this "neo-Stalinist leftists." BS is just the newest orwellian redefinition of the term "Liberal" by the demonizing Neo-con wolfs, trying to impose what they think the real definition of Lunch is on the sheep.

Hitler thought this as well that If you redefine the enemy in your own terms you win. Except he forgot.. up is still up and black is not white, and BS still smells the same no matter how much you say it's smell like a rose or how many you kill that disagree with you..

it's name calling

Then don't call others names, even if you believe it to be accurate. That was the point. Are you just being obtuse or are you really that dense?

You are a Neo-con! A Tool of the Republican Party. IS this name calling? What have Neo-cons begune to deny that they are already? Has the cock crowed three times yet?

Terms are a word or phrase used to describe a thing or to express a concept, and making up things to call someone to discredit them, that are not the truth and that they wouldn't call themselves is name calling.

It is a tactic of Fascism. So twist it if you want. it just twisted, and not the truth.

So if you are going to always quack like a duck, act like a duck, don't get mad and expect everyone to think you're a swan just because you want to hide the fact that your a duck.

Americans are not buying this anymore.

Ok, I'm going with dense...

Positively osmiumitic.

People should be afraid of their governments! That's why we have the Constitution and the Bills of Rights to limit the power of government!

The meaning of the quote is just that. We have a Constitution and Bill of Rights. So we should not allow any party to makes us afraid. We hold the power to research and learn so when they don't do their job we can vote them out. Not lead us by fear and lies. We as a people have become lazy and get out information from talking heads on the left and right. WE need to form our own opinions not a party line.

People should be afraid of their governments!

Since people vote government into power then by your standards we should be afraid of our own people.

Were you afraid when Bush II was in power?

Lisa says the GOP is the party of fear.........please your Messiah is taking our economy over the edge into depression with his incessant fearmongering about the future his attacks on corporations and small business with his new deal policies. He set up the Republicans and Limbaugh as the target for the Obots to start shooting at and they graciously have obliged. Witness many tools of of the left on this thread.

Treason-- Why is not treasonous for a Senate leader to declare a war lost while our soldiers are still fighting it? What about divulging National security secrets in the New York Times? How about fifty days of front page photos and stories about abuse of prisoners by a few individuals? Think that saved any lives? It didn't, it killed more soldiers. How about a congressman who publicly and falsely convicted a group of Marines of civilian massacre?

"Never been so horrified in my life" You don't get out much do ya? Lisa is "horrified of a three year old wearing cute shirt with a funny slogan" she is "horrified of a person who claims to be proud to be unpatriotic . But I have a funny feeling that she and others here were proud to be those in dissent over the Iraq war and policies with which they disagreed during the last 8 years. We didnt' shout treason for protest. And exactly who is calling for armed insurrection? I missed that in your rant.

We are not trying to destroy America, we are trying to preserve the Constitution and our Economic system of Free market capitalism. We will not blindly follow a President into economic and cultural Socialism just because he won the election. Since there is no longer a responsible News Media to keep the Administration and Congress honest anymore, we have to step forth and let people know what is actually happening. View it as dissent if you will .(Don't throw the T word around, you have no clue) . We will view it as Duty.

Sorry stopped reading at ".........please your Messiah" that summed up your ignorance.

Me too.

I'm hurt. I usually read all of your ignorance.

TheKay

While some of the things the Democrats did were wrong. I can not think of one time were we call for civil war. It is our duty as Americans to speak up when anyone be they on the right or left calls for the over throw of the government. To blindly sit by would be as much an act of treason as to do it yourself.

TheKay,

I would be more concerned with this poll:

the Dow industrials tallied the index's worst February point decline, and its second- worst percentage drop since 1933, when it lost 15.6%.

Investors the world over do not yet have confidence in the Obama administration to fix the economy.

I would be concerned that after less than 60 days after Obama took office, not fixing then tremendous blunders from the Bush administration, is now somehow the Democrat's fault.

Suggesting that is mere stupidity, and not even Republican voters accept that. Which is why Obama is a rising start amongst those voters, too.

Markets look ahead 3-6 months and Obama and Geithner (sp?) and not inspiring confidence.

I look ahead 4 years and I am inspired. President Obama is doing what it take to try fix the country. Unlike the Party of Nope (GOP). Trying something is better than stomping your feet and yelling No like the GOP.

Trying the wrong thing is worse than doing nothing.

You criticize President Obama, but what is your plan. Offering nothing but criticism so productive.

Well for one, Obama should have passed a stimulus bill half that size.

This talk about "free college" kills the budget even more.

Obama needs to address entitlement spending.

Okay what half gets cut. For kids to get help with college they must agree to serve the Country, such as the Military, work in their cities. So it is not free. As to entitlements should we start with Social Security :-) The GOP has wanted to get rid of it for years.

Well said!!

Anyone who incites violence to overthrow the government is sedition and that is treason.

We have a constitution of laws written by the pele and for the people, built that do this peacefully and by a majority vote, and with the power of amendment.

The Biggest Republican Lie of them all is that we don't have control of the Government when they are not in power.

Dan:

Anyone who incites violence to overthrow the government is sedition and that is treason.

This is a matter of degree, context, capacity and timing. It's not a blanket truth. (Thankfully) Sedition is actually still a very difficult offense to commit.

That isn't to say that the government won't lock you up without charging you in response to what it deems to be sedition.

Now that President Bush is out of Office I don't think many Americans will be locked up without charges.

This is a matter of degree, context, capacity and timing. It's not a blanket truth. (Thankfully) Sedition is actually still a very difficult offense to commit.

What do you call the rapturous display at CPAC if not a matter of extremely serious concern because of the high degree of anti American talk by its demagogue leader and 13 year old prince?

What is the context if not that of a mob being led by a madman.

What is the capacity of a group delusional enough to have a 13 year old, a fat drug addict demagogue and obnoxious liars as leadership?

What timing would be worse then the crisis we are currently in?

How difficult do you think Limbaugh would find it to attempt to either knowingly or stupidly release these raging ignorant fools as a mob intent on over turning the "socialist" danger he preaches governs us right now?

ftmackinc:

What do you call the rapturous display at CPAC if not a matter of extremely serious concern ...

I'm speaking specifically of the legal requirements for a prosecutor to prove sedition has occurred.

All of those things you mention are indeed troubling. But what I think about them, and how the law defines them, are two very different things...

Lisa Schneider:

so upswing...are you saying that you are disturbed by the rapturous events at CPAC? Can we at least agree on that?

We can agree that, if there was a rapturous event at CPAC, then anyone who was still in that audience after that rapture might want to seriously rethink what he or she plans to do in the afterlife ... ;-)

PastNikeVet:

So upswing we agree that if someone is going to use force to take over a lawfuly elected goverment of the people your willing to send them to final judgement for their treason.

Not sure how you get there ...

My point is that sedition has a long and checkered history in the US, from the Zenger trial in the 1700's, in which a Jury nullified Zenger's rightful conviction of seditious libel by telling the judge (and the world) that they would not accept a law that prevents them from speaking out against agents of the British government, through (the court cases of) Whitney, Fiske and Dennis to Brandenburg.

The upshot of it all is that, as a matter of SCOTUS ruling, unless what you are saying is going to cause some kind of imminent harm or injury, or, in the case of sedition, cause an immediate and violent attack on the government of the United States, what you say is most likely protected by the First Amendment.

Remember, this isn't me saying this, it's a SCOTUS ruling.

As for the American people having the right to dump their government and form a new one, that's Constitutionally protected, too...

However, and speaking purely personally, were it proven that someone -- such as a Neocon President and Vice president -- were found guilty of trying to destroy the United Staates' sovereignty and of working to turn the country and its people over to the mercy of global corporations, then I think I would be a lot more sympathetic to them facing the death penalty than I would with, for example, a regular murderer or rapist or some such.

It just rubs me the wrong way to allow the state to kill anybody for any reason ...

It's a complicated issue for me ... I want revenge, but I don't want society to pay the price for that revenge ...

By the way you can add this to the listhttp://bdimainman.newsvine.com/_news/2009/02/28/2488619-military-steps-up-attack-on-obama

while he has, in 30 days tripled what Bush spent in 8 years

Not having any choice in the matter since Bush left things in complete disaster. And, of course, Obama is spending money to help people rather than kill them.

Not having any choice in the matter

So, you have high credit card debt and you have no choice but to triple it? Wrong.

ElliePhat:

So, you have high credit card debt and you have no choice but to triple it? Wrong.

Wouldn't that depend on how bare the cupboard was when you opened it?

If your cupboard was bare, would you go to work, glean in a field, pump gas, etc. (in other words, do what it takes), or would you break into the grandchildren's piggybank? 26.2 is a false choice and it is the choice being crammed down by the administration.

The million or so people who have lost their jobs since he took office have not been helped by Obama's published plans which will cripple business, especially small business. As much as some would like to think "yes we can," no one can suspend the laws of economics anymore than they can suspend the laws of gravity.

So you wonder why Ellie said nothing during the Bush Admin (true/not true don't care) and yet it seems you have reversed the situation-questioning Bush and not Obama?

So Ellie...again I ask you...where was your soapbox when GW spent us into this mess?

That question has been put to you as well Lisa. Many of us have been complaining about the out of control spending. Many of us have been complaining about the so called conservatives in office who abandoned their core values. But did you complain about it? Or were you too busy complaining about WMD's to pay attention? And if you did complain about it, which I highly doubt, why are you not complaining about the additions now? Are you that naive as to think this $800B will rescue us from your phantom depression you think we'll sink into? You ask someone earlier to prove that the economic model would not lead to depression. How about you proving that it will. And when you do, be sure to include this: Delta Airlines filed for bankruptcy several years ago. They reorganized, renegotiated contracts with unions, and are now back in the game. K-Mart did the same. Why did it work for them but it wont work for AIG, CITI, Chrysler, GM, or the rest?

So let the banks fail. Not every financial institution is in trouble. Those that fail should fail, those that don't will be stronger. Let the Auto industry file bankruptcy. It worked for Delta, and K-Mart. It's called capitalism. In a free market, some succeed, other fail. When Government steps in, it's no longer a free market.

This recession is bad, but it's not the worst we've seen, not in the last 30 years. We can recover, but government meddling is only making it worse. The economy will hiccup, despite this clown's intervention, and then where will we be. Stuck with a tremendous debt we didn't have to have.

We are beyond recession. We are in a depression

Based on what? An extended recession? That's not the only factor for a depression. A GDP drop of 10% (it was only 6.8%) is a major factor many economist use to gauge a recessions transformation to depression. Hasn't happened yet. Sorry. Not in a depression yet. And even if we were, the depression of the 1930s, with FDRs failed New Deal policies should prove to this administration that these policies will not work. You cannot spend your way out of a recession or a depression. I suggest you talk with some economists. I've been paying attention to what they have had to say. Including the ones who are advising Obama, and have freely admitted that his plan's promise of 3 million jobs is nothing more than a guess. What we used to call a WAG.

But, Lisa, what do you make of the market's response to Obama since inauguration, especially on Obama announcement days? More than the market, what about growing job losses? The lack of confidence is Obama's baby, imo. He is the leader. He is the one with the plans and the big announcements. Business is very pessimistic about Obama's plans.

On this I do agree with you, let's meet again in three months.

We spent our way out of the last one in the form of a world war

Actually the spending was offset by War bonds, and a marginal tax rate of 81% for $5Mil in 40 and 41, to 88% for $200K in 42 and 43, and 92% for $200K in 44 and 45. You can't just look at what we spent in WWII, without looking at what else was changed. In this case, taxes, and just as important, tax brackets. FDR enacted the highest tax rate in our history at 94%. That means for every dollar earned over $200,000.00, you got to keep $.06 cents.

If you look at FDR's New Deal, you can understand the spending failure of it by comparing it to the rising marginal tax rate. From 24% in 29 to 81% in 40. THAT"S THE PROBLEM with trying to spend our way out of this. It wont stimulate, and is going to lead to skyrocketing tax rates. That's why I oppose this. History tells us what is coming next.

"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

George Santayana

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein

Like deficit spending to fix too much deficit spending?

As for job losses, over 1 million since inauguration month.

The difference between What Obama is doing now to save the American economy and the Rat hole that Bush threw our money down to disappear for ever, and that brought us into this mess, is easy to see.

One uses money to build and have something to show for it after the money is spent, and the other is just a rat hole.

Did you cash your check from the Bush stimulus? What did you spend it on. Difference was you had to chose what to spend it on. So if you have nothing to show for it you are the rat.

Oh.. and lets not ever forget where the "liberal pussies" cracks are always coming from.

"The Liberal State is a mask behind which there is no face; it is a scaffolding behind which there is no building." ~ Benito Mussolini

"Fascism, which was not afraid to call itself reactionary... does not hesitate to call itself illiberal and anti-liberal." ~ Benito Mussolini

Tell me Dan, what are you going to do with your extra $13 a week? Maybe, if you saved it for a whole year, you might be able to buy a new LCD TV. Way to stimulate the economy. This stimulus package wont stimulate a damn thing. It's nothing but a huge Pork sandwitch. If it wasn't, my two Congressmen wouldn't be wetting themselves about all the money it's going to bring into our state.

Chew on this. California has a deficit of over $40 billion. They're going to get about $5 billion from the stimulus. Great. Except they are still going to have a huge deficit. Any tax cut the Feds are giving the citizens there is going to be buried by the tax increases the state will have to lay on them. So I'm now saddled with a tax debt of $5 billion to the Fruits and Nuts in California, and it's not going to do a damn thing. Thank you Savior Obama. Thank you Nancy Pelosi.

I bitched about Republicans who abandoned their core values, I bitched about TARP, I bitched about Auto Bailout, I bitched about this phony stimulus, and I'll bitch about this fool's budget addition of 1 trillion dollars to the deficit.

And you are very good at Bitching. But what are your plans and ideas for fixing the Country other than Bitching.

Simple. And it has been proposed. Give everyone a tax holiday till July or August. We're going to print the $800B+ dollars anyway. Just print it and deposit it into the Treasury instead of collecting SS and Federal withholdings from everyones paycheck. Take a look at what your takehome pay would be if you no longer had federal tax withheld. What would you do then? Pay down your debt? Spend it on a new LCD TV? Buy that assault rifle while you still can?

Problem is, Congress doesn't trust us to invest our own money.

Those are good ideas except that without those taxes there won't be any Police, Fire Dept and the roads bridges will have big holes in them. As to the LCD TV I already have them. Don't have any debt (Home is paid for) other than monthly bills. And I don't need a assault rifle because I don't plan on assaulting anyone :-)

without those taxes there won't be any Police, Fire Dept and the roads bridges will have big holes in them.

You missed the part where I said print the money anyway, and deposit into the treasury. It's the same as taking the $800B and using it to refund your withholdings for a few months. In other words, let us spend it, not Congress.

But that would increase the debt even more. I beginning to suspect that you are a Liberal Democrat after all :-). No conservative would ever suggest such a thing as giving money to working people.

Bad, you missed the point entirely. The Dems were hell bent on spending $800B. No two ways about it. Pelosi and Reed even bickered about it. My initial response would be to do nothing. Let the failing banks fail, let the Auto Makers file bankruptcy and reorganize, and let the housing market get over its hiccup. But there are too many gloom and doom preachers saying the sky will fall if nothing is done. Let it. We will recover. This recession is not as bad as past recessions. And it will not lead to a depression. But if your going to tax the @!$%# out of me with an $800B stimulus, let me spend the money.

No conservative would ever suggest such a thing as giving money to working people.

Of course they do. It's called tax cuts.

"To lay taxes to provide for the general welfare of the United States, that is to say, "to lay taxes for the purpose of providing for the general welfare." For the laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please; but only to pay the debts or provide for the welfare of the Union." --Thomas Jefferson: Opinion on National Bank, 1791.

"Taxes should be proportioned to what may be annually spared by the individual." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1784.

"Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1785.

This so called republican party never considered the working class of America. Trades people, administrative or any one who wakes 5 am and travels an hour to their job.

The GOP of today are the mouth piece for the lobbies who pay them the most, or any one making more than a quarter million a year.

This is the same GOP that considers, raising minimum wage a threat on business, health insurance should not be a company assisted benefit, the same party who put their head in the sand when gas prices went above four dollars a gallon and cheered when companies showed a profit from outsourcing labor, and moving their business over seas.

When drug companies and insurance companies cried over being sued , the GOP was there as a shoulder to cry on and a voice to denounce the the victims as frivolous.

The GOP does not believe in workman compensation, or unemployment, they consider this a gift and not a right of working Americans.

If the GOP had their way any one who strapped on a tool belt or sat behind a desk for an industry would be property of that industry and if labor did not like it, they could quit and that industry could go south of the boarder for replacements.

well said, USA.....

Upton Sinclair wrote "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

Lovetrust your Sinclair quote is right on target!!!

Angry, I'm hearing reports about that $13.00 extra. That the pull has been lowered but that the burden to pay has not. Meaning, you will have to pay it back come 15 April of the next year.

Have you heard the like?

Juno, it wouldn't surprise me one bit. Nothing the Dems give you is without strings, or free.

So you admit that the Dems don't want to give tax cuts to the middle and lower income people. Hmmmmm. Kinda ironic, since this was a campaign point of the Savior.

Tax cuts don't stimulate the economy

Bull@!$%#. Cut taxes, especially on the small business owner, and he has more capital to expand. Tax the hell out of him (as these clowns want to do), and he will downsize.

every dime needs to go towards job creation/stimulating spending

Exactly! So let the small business owner keep his dime, and he can expand. But you would rather take it from him, and give it to some clown who bought too much house than he can afford.

Do you really think $13 extra in a paycheck is going to jumpstart this economy?

No. I laugh at it. What a dumbass move to try to show tax cutting. But believe me, I've seen plenty of liberal jerks in other threads praising this wonderful gift from ObamaReidPelosi INC.